Comments on: Security costs? You pay! http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/ Mindblogging the world to itself Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:53:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Aigarius Blog » I called it! http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-187 Aigarius Blog » I called it! Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:11:17 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-187 [...] Ryanair finally sued the UK government for 3 million pounds for the air traffic disruptions, just like I called it! Now they only need to team up with British Airways (who demand their money from goverment’s BAA) and all the other affected airlines, so that the court doesn’t just dismiss it right away. Also it would be nice if Ryanair rallied the people to halp them - demonstration in front of the courthouse and bumper stickers saying “Keep Britain Flying!” and “Keep US Flying!” (along with t-shirts, umbrellas and sports style water bottles) would also help to rally public support. [...] [...] Ryanair finally sued the UK government for 3 million pounds for the air traffic disruptions, just like I called it! Now they only need to team up with British Airways (who demand their money from goverment’s BAA) and all the other affected airlines, so that the court doesn’t just dismiss it right away. Also it would be nice if Ryanair rallied the people to halp them - demonstration in front of the courthouse and bumper stickers saying “Keep Britain Flying!” and “Keep US Flying!” (along with t-shirts, umbrellas and sports style water bottles) would also help to rally public support. [...]

]]> By: Magnus http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-133 Magnus Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:03:20 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-133 Jon said: "You can’t assess the situation on a purely economic basis because you can’t put a price on lives." What you are saying is that any measure is justified as long as it saves at least one life. Then I assume you are for banning cars (traffic kills 4 times as many people as terrorism does, in Israel!). Bathtubs would also have to go (in the Us roughly as many drown in bathtubs every year as dies from terrorism). I would suggest you read John Mueller's A False Sense of Insecurity (http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv27n3/v27n3-5.pdf). Jon said:
“You can’t assess the situation on a purely economic basis because you can’t put a price on lives.”

What you are saying is that any measure is justified as long as it saves at least one life. Then I assume you are for banning cars (traffic kills 4 times as many people as terrorism does, in Israel!). Bathtubs would also have to go (in the Us roughly as many drown in bathtubs every year as dies from terrorism).

I would suggest you read John Mueller’s A False Sense of Insecurity (http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv27n3/v27n3-5.pdf).

]]> By: therning.org/ magnus » Flying as we know it is gone… http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-131 therning.org/ magnus » Flying as we know it is gone… Tue, 15 Aug 2006 06:51:04 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-131 [...] Well, at least it seems it is. I’m wondering when they will release all the information to the public so that we can see if Aigarius’ rant comes true. [...] [...] Well, at least it seems it is. I’m wondering when they will release all the information to the public so that we can see if Aigarius’ rant comes true. [...]

]]> By: Seán http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-128 Seán Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:09:55 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-128 If the restrictions last longer than a week I'll be unhappy. If it turns out the threat was wildly overblown, I'll be unhappy. In the meantime those questions can't be answered. Whilst I agree that generally banning handluggage is unreasonable, in the context of a specific credible plot where it is unknown whether or not everybody involved has been arrested (like Jon said, I think it's too early to judge that) I personally can accept such measures for a short period of time. I'm less interested in the insurance aspect, but as a pointer I believe most/many insurance policies specifically exclude terrorism related events. I basically disagree with that being done, but in the end it is what the customer has signed up for, and that is the time they should complain about it, not now. Of course, if any companies that *don't* have such a clause are trying to weasel out, that's entirely different. If the restrictions last longer than a week I’ll be unhappy. If it turns out the threat was wildly overblown, I’ll be unhappy.

In the meantime those questions can’t be answered. Whilst I agree that generally banning handluggage is unreasonable, in the context of a specific credible plot where it is unknown whether or not everybody involved has been arrested (like Jon said, I think it’s too early to judge that) I personally can accept such measures for a short period of time.

I’m less interested in the insurance aspect, but as a pointer I believe most/many insurance policies specifically exclude terrorism related events. I basically disagree with that being done, but in the end it is what the customer has signed up for, and that is the time they should complain about it, not now. Of course, if any companies that *don’t* have such a clause are trying to weasel out, that’s entirely different.

]]> By: Johan http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-127 Johan Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:57:23 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-127 The problem is that right now the situation is not being assessed at all. All we have is the government's word that terrorists are being stopped left and right as our rights and civil liberties are taken away. The problem is that right now the situation is not being assessed at all. All we have is the government’s word that terrorists are being stopped left and right as our rights and civil liberties are taken away.

]]> By: Jon http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-124 Jon Sun, 13 Aug 2006 13:12:03 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-124 You can't assess the situation on a purely economic basis because you can't put a price on lives. You can’t assess the situation on a purely economic basis because you can’t put a price on lives.

]]> By: Johan http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-114 Johan Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:23:16 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-114 The current situation is fucked up. God only knows how many billions are spent on treating us all like cattle, for some nebuluous and ill-defined benefit of "averting terrorist threats", the politicos can claim to the unwashed masses that they're doing something, and we willingly play along. How often would you shop at a store where, every time you come in, the security guard kicks you in the nuts? I'm seriously considering taking a boat next time I go from North America to Europe. Oh well, with the airlines being as bankrupt financially as the politicians are morally, this can't go on forever. The current situation is fucked up. God only knows how many billions are spent on treating us all like cattle, for some nebuluous and ill-defined benefit of “averting terrorist threats”, the politicos can claim to the unwashed masses that they’re doing something, and we willingly play along.

How often would you shop at a store where, every time you come in, the security guard kicks you in the nuts?

I’m seriously considering taking a boat next time I go from North America to Europe.

Oh well, with the airlines being as bankrupt financially as the politicians are morally, this can’t go on forever.

]]> By: aigarius http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-109 aigarius Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:57:41 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-109 Insurance companies would need to pay life insurance cover for all affected passengers. If a significant amout is not insured, then the government would need to pay some compensation too. What I am trying to do here is to put the decision into numbers - plain and understandable monetary damages. I am fully convinced that one airplane with 300 passengers blown up (300 * 200 000 pounds of compensation + the cost of the plane) is better then 400 000 people sitting for hours and hours in airports or having their tickets bumped or cancelled (400 000 * 250 pounds of average damage + 175 million pounds of damage to the companies in only the first day). There must be a balance - a way to compare the both sides of a decision. Otherwise we should just prepare for mandatory anal probes and 4 hour pre-flight security procedures by 2009. Insurance companies would need to pay life insurance cover for all affected passengers. If a significant amout is not insured, then the government would need to pay some compensation too.
What I am trying to do here is to put the decision into numbers - plain and understandable monetary damages.
I am fully convinced that one airplane with 300 passengers blown up (300 * 200 000 pounds of compensation + the cost of the plane) is better then 400 000 people sitting for hours and hours in airports or having their tickets bumped or cancelled (400 000 * 250 pounds of average damage + 175 million pounds of damage to the companies in only the first day).
There must be a balance - a way to compare the both sides of a decision. Otherwise we should just prepare for mandatory anal probes and 4 hour pre-flight security procedures by 2009.

]]> By: Jon http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-104 Jon Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:42:59 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-104 How much would the cost have been if the planes had blown up? Who would pay then? How much would the cost have been if the planes had blown up? Who would pay then?

]]> By: aigarius http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-103 aigarius Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:19:13 +0000 http://www.aigarius.com/blog/2006/08/11/security-costs-you-pay/#comment-103 Yes, but in any case the request to cover any cost that the government's actions incured on the companies and on all the people still stands. It is called simple monetary accountability. There has been an almost identical plod disbanded in 1995 without any interruption in air traffic. Now the security people can go what ever they want unchecked because everyone is horrified by 9/11 and 7/7. There must be accountability regardless if there was a plot or not. Yes, but in any case the request to cover any cost that the government’s actions incured on the companies and on all the people still stands. It is called simple monetary accountability.
There has been an almost identical plod disbanded in 1995 without any interruption in air traffic. Now the security people can go what ever they want unchecked because everyone is horrified by 9/11 and 7/7.
There must be accountability regardless if there was a plot or not.

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